Anecdotal but I can testify to the "highly religious people are more likely to be anti-gay but neutral on trans issues" thing. Growing up in the 90s in a conservative, Protestant Christian, religious bubble, homosexuality was repeatedly warned against, with reference to Bible passages that are explicit in their wording (depending on translation, anyway).
But there aren't any anti-trans verses, really. The closest is a prohibition on cross-dressing, or vague statements about feminine men. The result was that I found people would be vocally anti-gay, but either have no opinion or even a positive one about trans people.
However, that's changed with increasing trans visibility and acceptance. As I reached adulthood and through to today, anti-trans rhetoric has far increased as people in positions of authority find increasingly tortured scriptural arguments against us and our existence, often directly in conjunction with Creationist beliefs (specifically, a pervasive idea that God assigns us our unchanging gender, and to deny this is to deny His Sovereignty).
Grateful for your interpretation of this study, Dr. Price. Within the last few months, my adult child has faced multiple instances of transmisogyny. During the earlier stages of transitioning, when Evvie was identifying as nonbinary and could still “pass” as male in the work environment, things were challenging but manageable. Now that medical/physical changes are clearly defined transfemme, pronouns are shifting from they/them to she/her, our adult child has been blatantly rejected in multiple situations. Worst of all, losing employment and having no luck getting work at even the most basic desk job. Evvie has an engineering degree from Notre Dame University, certification in coding, has worked successfully in the tech field full time for over 7 years. There’s no lack of skill, ability, willingness to work hard, or intelligence that should prevent being hired. It’s how she presents. 100%. I’m not sure how I feel about cutesy names like mama bear that my young people throw around, but the anger about how much discrimination and mistreatment has affected my child is real. The world can be a cruel, hateful place for anyone perceived as different and trans women seem to be particularly vulnerable. The anti-trans sentiment of the newly-elected leadership of this country terrifies me. Thank you for continuing to write and share your work to combat this disease of hate we have as a society. It’s good to know we aren’t alone. 💛
[If anyone reading this has a connection to employers in the Chicago area or remote who are in need of a genuinely good person to join their team, let me know!]
thank you for your comment Pamela. The world needs more parents who accept their trans kids as they are, and especially ones who believe their trans daughters about their experiences.
Your reply to my comment sparked some good conversation for us!
Namely, me asking, “Do you consider yourself or want to be considered our daughter?”
Evvie still feels that transfemme is the accurate description of their identity, but it seems this isn’t a concept that most people grasp.
It isn’t familiar or recognizable to people while trans woman is known more widely. As their community has begun to grow and change in a larger city, people started to use she/her pronouns. Evvie has started to accept it and is becoming more comfortable, but doesn’t necessarily think they’re a woman or a daughter. We know that could change and have already shared what people think of as “mother/daughter” moments.
Knowing we love and accept them for who they are is what matters.
Some days I wonder if my post- menopausal, autistic brain is capable of understanding the complex/nuanced aspects of gender & sexual identity. There’s hope for me yet! 💛
The conversation about the relationship in how gay men and trans women are viewed reminds me of Amy Stone's 2019 paper - “Frame Variation in Child Protectionist Claims: Constructions of Gay Men and Transgender Women as Strangers” - which has remained critically important since it's publication. Thank you for this write up, Devon!
You recognize very clearly that there is a marked difference between attitude poll differences for gay men and lesbian women, and their actual lived experiences of oppression in practice.
But then the whole article is about how surely this attitude poll research about trans people shows that the lived experiences of trans women must surely be worse than those of trans men, who should clearly step back and be quieter about their experiences with transphobia which clearly matter less. Because of course this atittude survey maps cleanly to experienced outcomes.
What led you to review Napier’s article Devon? Not that I’m complaining. Just curious. I scanned her articles and she does have a profile but it didn’t seem like she wrote in this area before.
Thank you for bringing this study to our attention and also highlighting how trans women are often ignored as scholars. It gives me some hope to see these topics discussed and taken seriously outside our own little circles. Sometimes it's like screaming against a wall...
I find it useful to think of hegemonic whiteness and hegemonic masculinity in this context. A lot of feminine men and trans women are socialized into protest masculinity which IMO is a toxic defense mechanism. I think homophobia should also be distinguished from femmephobia here. Also it's awkward but there's no good word for discrimination against marginalized masculinities.
I didn't really like it but Tommy Curry's "The Man-Not" is probably the most good faith argument in favor of specific oppression against Black men. I find the argument that there is specifically a homoerotic element to the domination of marginalized men important. I want to mention the book "Not Gay: Sex Between Straight White Men" too here as an example of the kind of homoerotic hazing and bullying which is disproportionately applied to marginalized men (white in this case).
Where I find these arguments less compelling is the fact that female masculinities are completely undiscussed. I think a lot of GNC women engage in protest masculinity. I'm also of the opinion that people of color can sometimes occupy spaces of marginalized whiteness and engage in protest whiteness. IMO in positions of authority, women of color are often held to higher standards of white masculinity than others are and are kind of forced into protest white masculinity.
So IMO there is a specific kind of structural oppression to marginalized masculinities but this kind of oppression can apply to women too. Same goes with forms of marginalized whiteness and people of color.
I would say that trans women experience transphobia, misogyny and discrimination against marginalized masculinity.
Actually, maybe the book "Queering the Color Line" is also semi-relevant here which discusses how racial-caste, gender and sexuality are interlinked?
Anyhow, I basically think that straight men can have gay sex with women and that men's homoerotic domination of women is very different than men's heterosexual domination of women.
I found your writeup quite interesting and useful, but i would challenge on a key point: you talk about transphobia and homophobia as intersecting with misogyny, where i think it more accurate and useful to think of them as names for outcroppings of misogyny varying by assigned sex and cultural context. I can give some examples, but I'm exhausted and want to make sure they could be of some interest first.
No, I don't. Perhaps "outcroppings" is better said "expressions." Femmephobia would be one as well but is primarily directed, by my understanding of the word, at women that take historically male positions of power in some fashion such as the storied Girlboss. To see a group as lesser and also have fear of them are wound together (see Umberto Eco's "Ur-Fascism" for a related point), and it's much said that trans- and homo- phobia are not simply -phobes' fears but predominantly their dehumanizing words and actions. I see all three fears as admissions that the walls of the castle of patriarchy are threatened by full humanity of any of those feared.
An offered example mentioned above would be many attacks on trans women: we want to play women's sports because we can't beat men*, we want to use the women's bathroom to be a creep or attacker, we want to use women's changing rooms to see naked kids... They are expressions of disbelief that a man would ever lower himself to being a woman for any reason but evil or insanity. It's insane to want and their further research is shaped by and assumes that prior belief and is so reinforced.
*offered up with the mildly misogynistic "it's unfair to women because men are biologically superior based on the measures of strength/speed," somehow ignoring that other forces might be at play, such as opposite social pressures around visible muscle, wildly unequal monetary drive toward wanting to play sports at all under capitalism, our culture making masculinity competitive and femininity caring and connecting with community...
I think transmisogyny describes exactly the special intersection you're describing. You'd say an outcropping if misogyny specific to the assigned gender of trans women. When the misogyny takes a different form because the gender assigned at birth is different - that's the transphobic part. So: transmisogyny. Did you read Whipping Girl? If no, I'd assume Seranos description of transmisogyny would resonate with you - if yes, I'd be interested to hear where you disagree.
You need to reconsider the subtitle. Understanding the issues trans women face is not somehow an "attack" on trans men nor "downplaying" their problems. You're dismissing the data researched, the anecdotes of trans women being unincluded and demonized, and the data on fatal violence in findings you yourself speak of. The idea that this is about "internet points" is laughable at best.
I think this article is well-written and well thought out, I'm very happy to see discussion on this research. I was happy to find out about large-scale research that finally actually addresses this, even if incidental.
it would sure be nice if, even just once, feminism and misogyny could be discussed without someone chiming in to call the data and any analysis of it an “attack” on men
Anecdotal but I can testify to the "highly religious people are more likely to be anti-gay but neutral on trans issues" thing. Growing up in the 90s in a conservative, Protestant Christian, religious bubble, homosexuality was repeatedly warned against, with reference to Bible passages that are explicit in their wording (depending on translation, anyway).
But there aren't any anti-trans verses, really. The closest is a prohibition on cross-dressing, or vague statements about feminine men. The result was that I found people would be vocally anti-gay, but either have no opinion or even a positive one about trans people.
However, that's changed with increasing trans visibility and acceptance. As I reached adulthood and through to today, anti-trans rhetoric has far increased as people in positions of authority find increasingly tortured scriptural arguments against us and our existence, often directly in conjunction with Creationist beliefs (specifically, a pervasive idea that God assigns us our unchanging gender, and to deny this is to deny His Sovereignty).
This tracks with my observations and gut feeling on what's going on, too!
Grateful for your interpretation of this study, Dr. Price. Within the last few months, my adult child has faced multiple instances of transmisogyny. During the earlier stages of transitioning, when Evvie was identifying as nonbinary and could still “pass” as male in the work environment, things were challenging but manageable. Now that medical/physical changes are clearly defined transfemme, pronouns are shifting from they/them to she/her, our adult child has been blatantly rejected in multiple situations. Worst of all, losing employment and having no luck getting work at even the most basic desk job. Evvie has an engineering degree from Notre Dame University, certification in coding, has worked successfully in the tech field full time for over 7 years. There’s no lack of skill, ability, willingness to work hard, or intelligence that should prevent being hired. It’s how she presents. 100%. I’m not sure how I feel about cutesy names like mama bear that my young people throw around, but the anger about how much discrimination and mistreatment has affected my child is real. The world can be a cruel, hateful place for anyone perceived as different and trans women seem to be particularly vulnerable. The anti-trans sentiment of the newly-elected leadership of this country terrifies me. Thank you for continuing to write and share your work to combat this disease of hate we have as a society. It’s good to know we aren’t alone. 💛
[If anyone reading this has a connection to employers in the Chicago area or remote who are in need of a genuinely good person to join their team, let me know!]
thank you for your comment Pamela. The world needs more parents who accept their trans kids as they are, and especially ones who believe their trans daughters about their experiences.
Your reply to my comment sparked some good conversation for us!
Namely, me asking, “Do you consider yourself or want to be considered our daughter?”
Evvie still feels that transfemme is the accurate description of their identity, but it seems this isn’t a concept that most people grasp.
It isn’t familiar or recognizable to people while trans woman is known more widely. As their community has begun to grow and change in a larger city, people started to use she/her pronouns. Evvie has started to accept it and is becoming more comfortable, but doesn’t necessarily think they’re a woman or a daughter. We know that could change and have already shared what people think of as “mother/daughter” moments.
Knowing we love and accept them for who they are is what matters.
Some days I wonder if my post- menopausal, autistic brain is capable of understanding the complex/nuanced aspects of gender & sexual identity. There’s hope for me yet! 💛
The conversation about the relationship in how gay men and trans women are viewed reminds me of Amy Stone's 2019 paper - “Frame Variation in Child Protectionist Claims: Constructions of Gay Men and Transgender Women as Strangers” - which has remained critically important since it's publication. Thank you for this write up, Devon!
this is such a thorough and comprehensive analysis & review, thank you!
So...
You recognize very clearly that there is a marked difference between attitude poll differences for gay men and lesbian women, and their actual lived experiences of oppression in practice.
But then the whole article is about how surely this attitude poll research about trans people shows that the lived experiences of trans women must surely be worse than those of trans men, who should clearly step back and be quieter about their experiences with transphobia which clearly matter less. Because of course this atittude survey maps cleanly to experienced outcomes.
That doesn't seem right to me.
That's not how I read the article at all.
What led you to review Napier’s article Devon? Not that I’m complaining. Just curious. I scanned her articles and she does have a profile but it didn’t seem like she wrote in this area before.
I get all the new SPPS articles in my inbox as they come out, along with several other journals.
Thank you for bringing this study to our attention and also highlighting how trans women are often ignored as scholars. It gives me some hope to see these topics discussed and taken seriously outside our own little circles. Sometimes it's like screaming against a wall...
I find it useful to think of hegemonic whiteness and hegemonic masculinity in this context. A lot of feminine men and trans women are socialized into protest masculinity which IMO is a toxic defense mechanism. I think homophobia should also be distinguished from femmephobia here. Also it's awkward but there's no good word for discrimination against marginalized masculinities.
I didn't really like it but Tommy Curry's "The Man-Not" is probably the most good faith argument in favor of specific oppression against Black men. I find the argument that there is specifically a homoerotic element to the domination of marginalized men important. I want to mention the book "Not Gay: Sex Between Straight White Men" too here as an example of the kind of homoerotic hazing and bullying which is disproportionately applied to marginalized men (white in this case).
Where I find these arguments less compelling is the fact that female masculinities are completely undiscussed. I think a lot of GNC women engage in protest masculinity. I'm also of the opinion that people of color can sometimes occupy spaces of marginalized whiteness and engage in protest whiteness. IMO in positions of authority, women of color are often held to higher standards of white masculinity than others are and are kind of forced into protest white masculinity.
So IMO there is a specific kind of structural oppression to marginalized masculinities but this kind of oppression can apply to women too. Same goes with forms of marginalized whiteness and people of color.
I would say that trans women experience transphobia, misogyny and discrimination against marginalized masculinity.
Actually, maybe the book "Queering the Color Line" is also semi-relevant here which discusses how racial-caste, gender and sexuality are interlinked?
Anyhow, I basically think that straight men can have gay sex with women and that men's homoerotic domination of women is very different than men's heterosexual domination of women.
This is an amazing breakdown & critique of the paper, thank you for this post!!
I found your writeup quite interesting and useful, but i would challenge on a key point: you talk about transphobia and homophobia as intersecting with misogyny, where i think it more accurate and useful to think of them as names for outcroppings of misogyny varying by assigned sex and cultural context. I can give some examples, but I'm exhausted and want to make sure they could be of some interest first.
Do you mean femmephobia and not misogyny?
No, I don't. Perhaps "outcroppings" is better said "expressions." Femmephobia would be one as well but is primarily directed, by my understanding of the word, at women that take historically male positions of power in some fashion such as the storied Girlboss. To see a group as lesser and also have fear of them are wound together (see Umberto Eco's "Ur-Fascism" for a related point), and it's much said that trans- and homo- phobia are not simply -phobes' fears but predominantly their dehumanizing words and actions. I see all three fears as admissions that the walls of the castle of patriarchy are threatened by full humanity of any of those feared.
An offered example mentioned above would be many attacks on trans women: we want to play women's sports because we can't beat men*, we want to use the women's bathroom to be a creep or attacker, we want to use women's changing rooms to see naked kids... They are expressions of disbelief that a man would ever lower himself to being a woman for any reason but evil or insanity. It's insane to want and their further research is shaped by and assumes that prior belief and is so reinforced.
*offered up with the mildly misogynistic "it's unfair to women because men are biologically superior based on the measures of strength/speed," somehow ignoring that other forces might be at play, such as opposite social pressures around visible muscle, wildly unequal monetary drive toward wanting to play sports at all under capitalism, our culture making masculinity competitive and femininity caring and connecting with community...
I think transmisogyny describes exactly the special intersection you're describing. You'd say an outcropping if misogyny specific to the assigned gender of trans women. When the misogyny takes a different form because the gender assigned at birth is different - that's the transphobic part. So: transmisogyny. Did you read Whipping Girl? If no, I'd assume Seranos description of transmisogyny would resonate with you - if yes, I'd be interested to hear where you disagree.
You do that know viewing a discussion of women's oppression to somehow be an "attack" on men is like, Men's Rights Activism 101 right.
You need to reconsider the subtitle. Understanding the issues trans women face is not somehow an "attack" on trans men nor "downplaying" their problems. You're dismissing the data researched, the anecdotes of trans women being unincluded and demonized, and the data on fatal violence in findings you yourself speak of. The idea that this is about "internet points" is laughable at best.
I think this article is well-written and well thought out, I'm very happy to see discussion on this research. I was happy to find out about large-scale research that finally actually addresses this, even if incidental.
it would sure be nice if, even just once, feminism and misogyny could be discussed without someone chiming in to call the data and any analysis of it an “attack” on men